The bitter hostility from the commentators is self-evident, and if they were honest, rational debaters they wouldn't immediately reach for the ad hominems, but instead reach for the evidence.
It is amazing how those critical of vaccines always debate in evidence, but those who shill vaccines can scarcely restrain themselves from hurling abuse.
They always sound nasty and also very arrogant. The other side, very rarely. The New York Times articles about or mentioning Robert Kennedy Jr. have been consistently nasty and distinguished by all sorts of weird arguments, like some members of his (huge) extended family disagree with him, yet these journalists rarely make any attempt at all to examine RFK’s positions.
Whenever I argue vax with my brother, he doesn't hurl abuse but does keep trying to pull it around to Andrew Wakefield. Like, maybe if he again patiently explains the Official Provax Tale of the Diabolical Andrew Wakefield and how he singlehandedly invented the idea of antivax to further his evil schemes, before which all and sundry loved and celebrated vaccines going all the way back to Jenner and the smallpox jab, I will come to my senses and learn to love vaccines as my true lord and savior.
He keeps forgetting that before covid, I, too, was a vax zealot and I'm the one who originally told him about Official Narrative Andrew Wakefield!
I am a 25-year professional medical/public health librarian.
The following is evidence that people who argue unintelligibly against Dr. Setty have been trying to avoid is that Covid-19 was a global operation in which the CDC participated. Please consider these changes:
Unusual Changes in Public Health Definitions:
In May, 2009, during the H1N1 swine flu outbreak (a worst-case-model “pandemic” that fizzled) – and without any form of public discussion – the 2003 definition of “pandemic” was truncated from “when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population has no immunity, resulting in several simultaneous epidemics worldwide with enormous numbers of deaths and illness,” to “when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population has no immunity.”
Neither the swine flu nor the Covid-19 infections would have qualified as pandemics under the 2003 definition.
The term “vaccine” was also re-defined by the US Centers for Disease Control in August 2021 (following the inefficient Covid vaccine roll-out of December 2020) – from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”
These definition changes meant that the Covid-19 virus was able to be identified by regulators as a world pandemic requiring universal masks and lockdowns, while recommending the only “product” that had not been exempted for an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), and was not required “to produce immunity” – the enormously profitable mRNA experimental gene therapies.
Per usual, Elizabeth you bring receipts. Excellent points. Unfortunately we are at odds with people who have a faith-based position (while at the same time they think they are being objective). Faith-based positions can never be overturned with an evidentiary argument because the evidence will be abandoned before faith. I think the best path forward is to simply grow our camp as theirs erodes by attrition. At some point a critical mass will be reached and people will change teams in droves. It's simply too difficult for many to remain in the minority. In the mean time, documenting the evidence for the historical record is a worthy cause. Thank you for all your service.
Besides y'alls wonderful work, restacking and cross posting will be the most effective tools for those of us not in the field. It is my great pleasure to support your efforts to restore credibility and trust in our medical systems.
As the saying goes, 'figures lie and liars figure'. You must destroy the credibility of the MMWR system in order to fix it. I hope that MAHA will be the drive needed to get your words before the nation and the World.
Dr. Setty, To answer your final question. There IS No Way to reach a majority of those thoroughly indoctrinated in the distorted ideology promulgated by CDC etc re covid jabs, masks and shutdowns. Refer to the excellent book “The Indoctrinated Brain”
Is there a way to get through to people in these cognitive distortions? Thomas Sowell has an answer to this: People will forgive you for being wrong but they will never forgive you for being right, especially if events prove you right while proving them wrong. The snarky obnoxious comments leveled at you are annoying, but think of all those who read what you say, don’t leave a comment, but go hmmmm... now that’s interesting. Keep. Commenting.
Yes. I do think there is a silent majority that gets it. The best evidence for this is that this seemed to hit Jetelina and Faust out of nowhere. They are truly baffled as to how this could have happened.
I have puzzled greatly over this phenomenon. At the present, I have no answers, but I suspect it may help if the person is pre-conditioned to be skeptical of the medical profession. An example, years ago I had an Irish friend with no health issues who seemed very clear headed about the medical field. When I asked her about it, she said growing up her sister had epilepsy. When expensive doctors repeatedly failed to treat her effectively, my friend gradually evolved an attitude of skepticism toward medical claims in general. I wonder if at least a good number of unvaccinated people were pre-conditioned to ask questions. Also, I wonder if the Covid debacle will serve as pre-conditioning for a large segment of the population going forward. One example I have noticed is in the New York Post comment section how many people mention vaccine injury when someone dies and the cause of death isn’t mentioned or even if it is. It is quite striking.
Good science and good medicine require questions, debate, dissent and differences of opinion. The influence if not domination of science-medicine by the P/Harma industry seeks to prevent such interactions, thereby neutering science and medicine to the danger of all. Keep up the good fight.
Rebekah Barnett had a piece out recently portraying a severely vaccine injured dying man who still thinks he made the right decision to rake the shot and that all critics of them are loonies.
And Janet Daley describes the same phenomenon quite well at tge example of clinatd change, gender&co in her current piece.
"The most valuable piece of kit in their armoury is the claim to moral ascendancy: what they say that they represent, whether in the form of kindness to the psychologically vulnerable, or historic guilt over the consequences of modern affluence, is repentance. Therefore, any attempt to question, let alone dismantle, their programme must be evil by definition.
Giving any consideration to the damage that could be done by the policies that their programme dictates is beyond the pale: who would dare talk about mundane practicalities under such profoundly life-changing circumstances? Human decency both in terms of personal magnanimity and conscientious custodianship of the future prohibit any argument.
So one possible solution to this impasse is simply to stop arguing. It is futile to debate these quasi-religious propositions because you are inevitably forced into a discourse on the other side’s absolutist terms....
Thus we arrive at what could be called the Trump doctrine: stop arguing about things that are not rational. Just put a stop to them.
Donald Trump himself might not state it quite like this because he is, so far as one can see, unfamiliar with the finer points of philosophical discourse but, in essence, what he is saying is that the other side is putting forward a case that cannot be countered either with logic or evidence.
Therefore it must simply be dismissed. There are only two fixed, legally recognised sexes. Bang. The need for cheap energy to restore growth in the economy must be paramount. Bang. Increasing industrial production and wealth is good for everybody. Bang. Don’t waste any more time trying to defend things that your critics will always regard as indefensible because they are starting from a set of assumptions that can never be disproved..."
Bottomline: one cannot reason with fanatics or with people who think they were or are doing the morally right thing.
And with the 'vaccines' it's even worse, as the pushers all know that they would be guilty of not only harming themselves but other people, above all their family members and children of they accepted that they were useless and/or harmful.
Most people will do everything they can to prevent that reckoning. They have to.
One can only ignore them and do ones thing regardless.
In addition to being substantive and persuasive, I find your style of writing to be quite generous and gracious. Almost calming in fact. Not at all easy to do given the nature of the comments.
I truly believe there is profound change happening behind the scenes. Most don’t speak up for a variety of reasons.
I will never forget how I learned about vaccine harms. Way later than I should have. An integrative medicine doctor told me that my nine year old daughter could never receive vaccines again, that her immune system was severely compromised as a result of her earlier vaccines.
Many have similar stories. I mention this because I personally didn’t understand or speak up about vaccine harms until several years after this doctor visit (an out of network doctor of course). I honestly was horrified by what I found and didn’t want to believe it. I first wanted to research the issue, read books and studies, make sure I was sure, before I “came out” publicly as a vaccine skeptic.
All this to say, that I’m sure there are many more like me, doing their research, horrified at what they’re finding and what this means.
I'm surprised how often people arguing about the Covid vax issue don't start with the basics, like the mortality data pre- and post-vax--how many people died, where and when they died, etc. There was an unprecedented increase in deaths in the US in 2020 of 19%--6 times higher than any previous increase over the last century or more. They came in a series of localize death surges, and remained high through 2021, after introduction of the vax in mid-December 2020--the number of deaths increased a little more in 2021, along with the death rate--a pretty obvious indication the vaccines were not helping.
Better to focus on people with the willingness to listen now, IMO, esp. young people--there is no time to worry about everyone else, many of whom don't want to hear it. Time is precious--personally I think by far the bigger time-wasters are paid trolls or AI, infesting virtually every online forum, promoting various false narratives for personal profit. 99% of the really obnoxious responses are trolls/AI, IMO, including what you posted, and their rude and dismissive and insulting nature is by design, not because they are socially inept or oblivious. Maybe all it's possible to do is design our responses as if they were intended for a thoughtful and sincere person. Not sure.
You will never get to them. Their entire world view is built upon the sands of lies and not the rocks of truth. The waves of reality will always wash ashore and destroy anything built upon the sands and those that are built upon the rocks will still stand. Just look at what is happening in California right now. They had been warned and they knew the dangers yet they continued the lies and reality has destroyed thousands of homes and killed many people. You can lead the horse to water but you can not make it drink.
What is more interesting is how 1.2 MILLION extra US citizens died from 2020-2022, in a bizarre series of localized death surges--but it takes the destruction of real property to capture widespread attention. That's a little tongue-in-cheek, since obviously one event is being covered up and the other is being widely promoted.
People who have these cognitive distortions have gone through mind-control/ brainwashing/hypnosis, in that they’ve exposed themselves to repetitive information, and their ‘science’ has become religion. Perhaps we should treat it as religion, and assume that it’s rude to question their beliefs?
This is why I liked your book so much: it was about understanding how we come to our beliefs.
We need new strategies for dealing with the new religion of science.
I must tell you that meeting with you up in Concord was one of the highlights of 2024 for me. It was a delightful experience and I learned a lot. People would be wise to listen to you as opposed to throwing out meaningless insults.
The bitter hostility from the commentators is self-evident, and if they were honest, rational debaters they wouldn't immediately reach for the ad hominems, but instead reach for the evidence.
It is amazing how those critical of vaccines always debate in evidence, but those who shill vaccines can scarcely restrain themselves from hurling abuse.
Keep up the good work Setty.
They always sound nasty and also very arrogant. The other side, very rarely. The New York Times articles about or mentioning Robert Kennedy Jr. have been consistently nasty and distinguished by all sorts of weird arguments, like some members of his (huge) extended family disagree with him, yet these journalists rarely make any attempt at all to examine RFK’s positions.
Whenever I argue vax with my brother, he doesn't hurl abuse but does keep trying to pull it around to Andrew Wakefield. Like, maybe if he again patiently explains the Official Provax Tale of the Diabolical Andrew Wakefield and how he singlehandedly invented the idea of antivax to further his evil schemes, before which all and sundry loved and celebrated vaccines going all the way back to Jenner and the smallpox jab, I will come to my senses and learn to love vaccines as my true lord and savior.
He keeps forgetting that before covid, I, too, was a vax zealot and I'm the one who originally told him about Official Narrative Andrew Wakefield!
I am a 25-year professional medical/public health librarian.
The following is evidence that people who argue unintelligibly against Dr. Setty have been trying to avoid is that Covid-19 was a global operation in which the CDC participated. Please consider these changes:
Unusual Changes in Public Health Definitions:
In May, 2009, during the H1N1 swine flu outbreak (a worst-case-model “pandemic” that fizzled) – and without any form of public discussion – the 2003 definition of “pandemic” was truncated from “when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population has no immunity, resulting in several simultaneous epidemics worldwide with enormous numbers of deaths and illness,” to “when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population has no immunity.”
Neither the swine flu nor the Covid-19 infections would have qualified as pandemics under the 2003 definition.
The term “vaccine” was also re-defined by the US Centers for Disease Control in August 2021 (following the inefficient Covid vaccine roll-out of December 2020) – from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”
These definition changes meant that the Covid-19 virus was able to be identified by regulators as a world pandemic requiring universal masks and lockdowns, while recommending the only “product” that had not been exempted for an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), and was not required “to produce immunity” – the enormously profitable mRNA experimental gene therapies.
References:
Peter Doshi, “The elusive definition of pandemic influenza,” Bull World Health Organ. 2011 Jul 1; 89(7): 532–538 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3127275/).
Katie Camero, “Why did CDC change its definition for ‘vaccine’? Agency explains move as skeptics lurk,” Miami Herald, 27 September 2021 (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html).
In 2012, the CDC definition was “A product that produces immunity therefore protecting the body from the disease.” See http://web.archive.org/web/20120710132002/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm.
Per usual, Elizabeth you bring receipts. Excellent points. Unfortunately we are at odds with people who have a faith-based position (while at the same time they think they are being objective). Faith-based positions can never be overturned with an evidentiary argument because the evidence will be abandoned before faith. I think the best path forward is to simply grow our camp as theirs erodes by attrition. At some point a critical mass will be reached and people will change teams in droves. It's simply too difficult for many to remain in the minority. In the mean time, documenting the evidence for the historical record is a worthy cause. Thank you for all your service.
Thank you, Madhava. I very much appreciate all the work you are doing, and I'm very happy to support it.
One thing we know, and that is that the truth, which remains anchored in reality, has a way of coming out.
Besides y'alls wonderful work, restacking and cross posting will be the most effective tools for those of us not in the field. It is my great pleasure to support your efforts to restore credibility and trust in our medical systems.
As the saying goes, 'figures lie and liars figure'. You must destroy the credibility of the MMWR system in order to fix it. I hope that MAHA will be the drive needed to get your words before the nation and the World.
Thank you, prsmith!
Dr. Setty, To answer your final question. There IS No Way to reach a majority of those thoroughly indoctrinated in the distorted ideology promulgated by CDC etc re covid jabs, masks and shutdowns. Refer to the excellent book “The Indoctrinated Brain”
And who’s to say those commenters were legit people.
Nothing but we know for a fact that such people exist...just count the fully "vaccinated".
Is there a way to get through to people in these cognitive distortions? Thomas Sowell has an answer to this: People will forgive you for being wrong but they will never forgive you for being right, especially if events prove you right while proving them wrong. The snarky obnoxious comments leveled at you are annoying, but think of all those who read what you say, don’t leave a comment, but go hmmmm... now that’s interesting. Keep. Commenting.
Yes. I do think there is a silent majority that gets it. The best evidence for this is that this seemed to hit Jetelina and Faust out of nowhere. They are truly baffled as to how this could have happened.
I have puzzled greatly over this phenomenon. At the present, I have no answers, but I suspect it may help if the person is pre-conditioned to be skeptical of the medical profession. An example, years ago I had an Irish friend with no health issues who seemed very clear headed about the medical field. When I asked her about it, she said growing up her sister had epilepsy. When expensive doctors repeatedly failed to treat her effectively, my friend gradually evolved an attitude of skepticism toward medical claims in general. I wonder if at least a good number of unvaccinated people were pre-conditioned to ask questions. Also, I wonder if the Covid debacle will serve as pre-conditioning for a large segment of the population going forward. One example I have noticed is in the New York Post comment section how many people mention vaccine injury when someone dies and the cause of death isn’t mentioned or even if it is. It is quite striking.
Madhava, you argue with grace and respect, when I disagree with you I find you annoying. Love ya
😊
Good science and good medicine require questions, debate, dissent and differences of opinion. The influence if not domination of science-medicine by the P/Harma industry seeks to prevent such interactions, thereby neutering science and medicine to the danger of all. Keep up the good fight.
I often wonder what happened to "Do no harm" in the profession when they are so obviously doing harm? What have we become?
Do No Harm creates legal problems so it gets tossed, along with the concept of doctors as healers.
Sad that...
Rebekah Barnett had a piece out recently portraying a severely vaccine injured dying man who still thinks he made the right decision to rake the shot and that all critics of them are loonies.
https://news.rebekahbarnett.com.au/p/why-do-some-vaccine-injured-people?lli=1&utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
And Janet Daley describes the same phenomenon quite well at tge example of clinatd change, gender&co in her current piece.
"The most valuable piece of kit in their armoury is the claim to moral ascendancy: what they say that they represent, whether in the form of kindness to the psychologically vulnerable, or historic guilt over the consequences of modern affluence, is repentance. Therefore, any attempt to question, let alone dismantle, their programme must be evil by definition.
Giving any consideration to the damage that could be done by the policies that their programme dictates is beyond the pale: who would dare talk about mundane practicalities under such profoundly life-changing circumstances? Human decency both in terms of personal magnanimity and conscientious custodianship of the future prohibit any argument.
So one possible solution to this impasse is simply to stop arguing. It is futile to debate these quasi-religious propositions because you are inevitably forced into a discourse on the other side’s absolutist terms....
Thus we arrive at what could be called the Trump doctrine: stop arguing about things that are not rational. Just put a stop to them.
Donald Trump himself might not state it quite like this because he is, so far as one can see, unfamiliar with the finer points of philosophical discourse but, in essence, what he is saying is that the other side is putting forward a case that cannot be countered either with logic or evidence.
Therefore it must simply be dismissed. There are only two fixed, legally recognised sexes. Bang. The need for cheap energy to restore growth in the economy must be paramount. Bang. Increasing industrial production and wealth is good for everybody. Bang. Don’t waste any more time trying to defend things that your critics will always regard as indefensible because they are starting from a set of assumptions that can never be disproved..."
https://archive.is/vWRFa
Bottomline: one cannot reason with fanatics or with people who think they were or are doing the morally right thing.
And with the 'vaccines' it's even worse, as the pushers all know that they would be guilty of not only harming themselves but other people, above all their family members and children of they accepted that they were useless and/or harmful.
Most people will do everything they can to prevent that reckoning. They have to.
One can only ignore them and do ones thing regardless.
Excellent reasoning
In addition to being substantive and persuasive, I find your style of writing to be quite generous and gracious. Almost calming in fact. Not at all easy to do given the nature of the comments.
I truly believe there is profound change happening behind the scenes. Most don’t speak up for a variety of reasons.
I will never forget how I learned about vaccine harms. Way later than I should have. An integrative medicine doctor told me that my nine year old daughter could never receive vaccines again, that her immune system was severely compromised as a result of her earlier vaccines.
Many have similar stories. I mention this because I personally didn’t understand or speak up about vaccine harms until several years after this doctor visit (an out of network doctor of course). I honestly was horrified by what I found and didn’t want to believe it. I first wanted to research the issue, read books and studies, make sure I was sure, before I “came out” publicly as a vaccine skeptic.
All this to say, that I’m sure there are many more like me, doing their research, horrified at what they’re finding and what this means.
Some are quick processors and get it
Some softball questions to help people wake up to the Pscience > Nature psyop.
- If vaccines are so safe & effective, why
(a) do vaccines need blanket liability protections, but all other medications don’t?
(B) does big pharma & NIH refuse to do any long term studies comparing vaccinated and un cohorts?
(c) did Pfizer & the FDA try to hide cv vaccine safety trial data for 75 years? https://open.substack.com/pub/naomiwolf/p/the-pfizer-papers-prizers-crimes?r=45uj2v&utm_medium=ios
- You know what mRNA is? Yeah, that’s NOT what they put in the mRNA shots - the m is for modified. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9021518/
- You know what GMO is? Modified RNA + You.
- You remember 9-11?
I do not fear mRNA. I believe that these technologies will be curing previously incurable diseases soon. What I do fear is...
-- untested "vaccines".
-- falsified documentation.
-- EUAs.
-- captured media
-- withheld/massaged harm/death reports
-- dangerous additives including Mercury and foreign DNA.
-- withheld information, no fully informed consent.
-- unrecognized/uncorrected bias
-- evil intent
-- profit motive
-- government mandates
Thank you for offering recorded versions of your articles.
I'm surprised how often people arguing about the Covid vax issue don't start with the basics, like the mortality data pre- and post-vax--how many people died, where and when they died, etc. There was an unprecedented increase in deaths in the US in 2020 of 19%--6 times higher than any previous increase over the last century or more. They came in a series of localize death surges, and remained high through 2021, after introduction of the vax in mid-December 2020--the number of deaths increased a little more in 2021, along with the death rate--a pretty obvious indication the vaccines were not helping.
Indeed. This is the central challenge. How do we engage with people who are illogical and blind to what sits in front of them?
Better to focus on people with the willingness to listen now, IMO, esp. young people--there is no time to worry about everyone else, many of whom don't want to hear it. Time is precious--personally I think by far the bigger time-wasters are paid trolls or AI, infesting virtually every online forum, promoting various false narratives for personal profit. 99% of the really obnoxious responses are trolls/AI, IMO, including what you posted, and their rude and dismissive and insulting nature is by design, not because they are socially inept or oblivious. Maybe all it's possible to do is design our responses as if they were intended for a thoughtful and sincere person. Not sure.
I agree. I definitely take great care to respond in ways that may reach the audience and not the bot who drops inflammatory comments.
You will never get to them. Their entire world view is built upon the sands of lies and not the rocks of truth. The waves of reality will always wash ashore and destroy anything built upon the sands and those that are built upon the rocks will still stand. Just look at what is happening in California right now. They had been warned and they knew the dangers yet they continued the lies and reality has destroyed thousands of homes and killed many people. You can lead the horse to water but you can not make it drink.
What is more interesting is how 1.2 MILLION extra US citizens died from 2020-2022, in a bizarre series of localized death surges--but it takes the destruction of real property to capture widespread attention. That's a little tongue-in-cheek, since obviously one event is being covered up and the other is being widely promoted.
Yes that is also true. Fauci lied and millions died.
People who have these cognitive distortions have gone through mind-control/ brainwashing/hypnosis, in that they’ve exposed themselves to repetitive information, and their ‘science’ has become religion. Perhaps we should treat it as religion, and assume that it’s rude to question their beliefs?
This is why I liked your book so much: it was about understanding how we come to our beliefs.
We need new strategies for dealing with the new religion of science.
That Katelyn makes my skin crawl.
Amazing how few dollars are required to make so called "doctors" completely deaf, dumb and blind.
I must tell you that meeting with you up in Concord was one of the highlights of 2024 for me. It was a delightful experience and I learned a lot. People would be wise to listen to you as opposed to throwing out meaningless insults.
Thanks for the yummy coffee!